Partial Quotients - back me up! (2024)

I teach 4th and use Everyday Math. I could teach Math all day long - I love it! I also think that the partial quotients algorithm for long division is the best thing since sliced bread! I feel it really helps the kids understand the why of division, not just the mechanics. I am not saying that I would never allow a student to use the traditional method if s/he has learned it at home...whatever works is okay by me. Same thing goes for multiplication - lattice, partial products, traditional method. If they have the correct answer - who cares?

That said...I need some ammunition from those who feel the way I do. A parent/board member/college math instructor sent me an e-mail (Her oldest son just finished 5th grade - I think - he was sent to a special school, and the little one is entering 3rd grade.) In the e-mail, she begs me to stop teaching partial quotients, and puts down most of Everyday Math. She mentions that our Grades 6-7-8 Math teacher (small school - PK - 8) does not ALLOW her students to use PQ. Fine...they can learn the other way, but how can she not allow it? Then she said her older son (the disturbed one) is a gifted Math student and had to learn division all over. BTW - I was not his 4th grade teacher. She also said that the students make the parents feel "stupid" because the parents don't understand the other methods.

Anyway...I need some ideas on how to respond to her, as her youngest and my DD are in the same camp group. I saw her this a.m. and avoided her, but a conversation is inevitable. I passed the e-mail on to our Superintendent/Principal, but he is out until 7/5. Any thoughts on what I can say - other than "Leave me alone...it's Summer!" - to support my stand? I have always gotten along with her and do not want to ruin that relationship. This is why living where I teach is probably not so great...

Thanks so much!!

I teach about Partial Quotient and Traditional. I ask kids for the pros and cons of each. Usually they can come up with them, but if not I try to lead them to observe:

Let's say you are doing 871 / 15

Partial Quotient Pro: Students don't have to start off with the 1 right number. In Trad. if you ask "How many 15s are in 87" and you guess 6 instead of 5, then you are going to be wrong and have to try again. That can be daunting and intimidating to students. In Partial Quotient ANY number will work. That allows kids to go ahead and take a risk and actually BEGIN to solve the problem. Students can then use friendly numbers to solve it. Also, partial quotient does show better knowledge of the actual problem. Asking "How many 17's in 87?" is misleading, because it's really "How many 15's are in 871?" Thus by using PQ they are solving the actual problem and using their estimation skills and number sense to do it.

PQ Con: Can take a LONG time, and if a kid has poor number sense and multiplication skills, they will choose unfriendly numbers. Instead of starting with 100s or 50s or 20s they might start with 2. Then they keep on using 2. It takes a ton of room, a ton of time, and the kid never really understands the original problem.

Trad Pro- Usually more efficient
Trad Con- Doesn't really show place value sense and kids can be paralyzed from starting the problem as they search for the absolute correct first step.

I created a ppt for parents to show them how PQ works. I've attached it if you want to use it.

yes

Yes, tell them nicely to leave you alone - it's summer. They are kind of nervy.

But on the issue of Every Day math, that's been a thorn in the side of my own children regarding my grandchildren and the way they are taught. I have NEVER taught below 7th grade, BTW, so this is just from a grandparent's viewpoint.

Everyone in our family - no exceptions - are math whizzes. And yet, my youngest granddaughter was struggling in math. She simply couldn't figure out - nor could any of us help her at first - what on earth was expected. No textbook with examples, just a teacher made worksheet. She DID know the answer. She just couldn't show it in the manner that was asked for. We are less than impressed with her or any of the others learning WHY. Fourth grade needs to know HOW. There isn't one division problem that cannot be solved the standard way. And I can hardly believe I'm saying this, but long division is probably going the way of cursive writing. They'll learn the basics and get a little practice, and then the calculators will take over. I do mean long division - they should all be very fluent in math facts.

This really doesn't help you, I know. Maybe you ought to inform her that you teach both, so there's no problem. And then slip a little more standard long division in your presentation next year.

Or tell her, "Good question. Let's get together after school the first week back in the fall," and get your summer back. Good luck with that. You need that break.

division

I have taught EDM for seven years now, and love the program. The only area I find parents really have trouble with is division. I teach my students partial quotients and traditional, and let them choose the one they like best. In regards to the parent email, I would say that there are a lot of ways to perform certain kinds of problems, and some of the non-traditional methods really stick with kids. If she really wants her child to do more traditional methods, well, so be it. If the child can come up with the answer, that is the most important thing. Hopefully, your principal can back you and the EDM program up with the parent when he returns. (By the way, our standardized test scores have gone WAY up since using EDM). Good luck!

I don't use EDM- but when I began teaching Harcourt I ran into problems with parents understanding the "hows" behind the lessons, and this was 3rd grade rounding!. That is when I quit sending Harcourt home as homework. I will only send math from the book/workbook ONLY if the kids understand it and it won't look too weird to the parents.

My colleagues and I tend to teach everything from the 'traditional' approach. We do this because Harcourt presents many different ways to approach a problem. These different ways are the "work arounds" many of us figured out back when things were taught traditionally. The problem is, work arounds are needed for a minority of students. Most will get the concept under traditional methods. For many of my brighter students, forcing them to think about something differently confuses them.

I hope that makes sense.

partial products

I think it's fine to teach different methods for solving math problems. The problem is that, no one else understands that method. So if the child is having difficulty with his math, mom or dad, or grandma can't help them. Also, if the middle school doesn't use that method, then they need to know the traditional approach.

If it were me, just because it's summer and I wouldn't want to be bothered, I'd just tell her I'm thinking about it or will teach both methods and leave it at that. (But that's just my lazy way)

Tulips

Edm

I taught a traditional math program for 17 years in a variety of elementary grades, I've taught EDM for the past 3 years. It was a hard adjustment for me as a teacher but I feel the students understand the concepts better now instead of just learning the process of the algorithm.

The 2011 edition of EDM has more traditional algorithms so that will help those of us who always include the traditional algorithms.

As far as parents go, just as many complain about traditional programs and that we teach it different than they learned. My children were in EDM while I was teaching a tradition program but I didn't have a problem with it. Often the parents that complain the most are the ones who struggle with math themselves and don't know how to help their child with any algorithm. Parents say they never like math, but don't support their children learning the process and just want to teach them steps to complete the problem. The same people will complain no matter what curriculum you are teaching.

Our test scores are also very high. We generally only have 4-5 kids that fall below the NWEA benchmark. Interestingly, our Middle School math teachers hate EDM. We send them students that have skills above grade level but their scores plummet in MS. They've changed curriculum 3 times in the last 5 years. Too much teaching process instead of concept I think.

Char Forsten, nationally known math expert, teaches partial quotients, lattice, etc. in her workshops. It's amazing to hear teachers excited to use these methods with thier students, but when it's discussed as a part of EDM it gets a bad rap. Matt Burns, professor at U of Minnesota and nationally known math and RTI expert, also teaches these methods in his workshops. The education department of Minnesota also runs a Math Academy and many of the concepts and methods are similar to EDM.

Good luck and have a great summer break!

A word of support

for you. I really liked the suggestion that "we get together in the fall and brainstorm different math methods" :] As to her son being "Gifted" his gift may not be math. Bottom line, don't let her ruin your summer-stick to what you believe is best for the students. Teach whats in your heart and all will be well. My sister once gave me this advice and I love it--It's hard to soar with Eagles when you are surrounded with Turkeys" so I say soar and get away from those turkeys.

partial quotients - one more thought

Is EDM your district adopted curriculum? If it is, then you are just following district guidelines in teaching it. If she feels that it's a poor curriculum, then she can address that as a board member, but it is not under your authority to opt out of teaching district adopted curriculum.

thanks for powerpoint mistap

I really appreciate the simple explanation for parents.

Mistap

Thank you so much for the PowerPoint! I have never seen partial quotients before. I will keep this in mind for my kids that struggle with the traditional way.

As for a way to approach this parent, I would say to them that if they have concerns after the start of the year that you would be more than happy to sit down and talk. I am a firm believer that not every child is going to understand a concept the same way. I always tell my kids that if they have a different way to solve a problem as long as they get the correct answer consistantly, I don't care. Many times I will have them share their way because it may help someone else. Just remember that ways of teaching math concepts change all the time. My mother learned to do long division by putting zeros behind each digit in the quotient and adding that (think expanded form). I didn't understand that, but I had a classmate the she tutored and it helped her.
Good luck with this parent. Don't let the fact that she/he is a board member shake you. It may be an intimidation factor on her/his part...

teach8060 said:

I teach 4th and use Everyday Math. I could teach Math all day long - I love it! I also think that the partial quotients algorithm for long division is the best thing since sliced bread! I feel it really helps the kids understand the why of division, not just the mechanics. I am not saying that I would never allow a student to use the traditional method if s/he has learned it at home...whatever works is okay by me. Same thing goes for multiplication - lattice, partial products, traditional method. If they have the correct answer - who cares?

That said...I need some ammunition from those who feel the way I do. A parent/board member/college math instructor sent me an e-mail (Her oldest son just finished 5th grade - I think - he was sent to a special school, and the little one is entering 3rd grade.) In the e-mail, she begs me to stop teaching partial quotients, and puts down most of Everyday Math. She mentions that our Grades 6-7-8 Math teacher (small school - PK - 8) does not ALLOW her students to use PQ. Fine...they can learn the other way, but how can she not allow it? Then she said her older son (the disturbed one) is a gifted Math student and had to learn division all over. BTW - I was not his 4th grade teacher. She also said that the students make the parents feel "stupid" because the parents don't understand the other methods.

Anyway...I need some ideas on how to respond to her, as her youngest and my DD are in the same camp group. I saw her this a.m. and avoided her, but a conversation is inevitable. I passed the e-mail on to our Superintendent/Principal, but he is out until 7/5. Any thoughts on what I can say - other than "Leave me alone...it's Summer!" - to support my stand? I have always gotten along with her and do not want to ruin that relationship. This is why living where I teach is probably not so great...

Thanks so much!!

Click to expand...

I am a college math professor and one of the algebra topics I teach, (and everyone has to teach this) is polynomial division and polynomial division is quite similar to traditional long division. My students who learned traditional division methods have no problem with polynomial division but it is impossible for the students who have not been taught this way. I contend that if you review polynomial division you might not want to teach PQ either.

Just a couple of semi on topics from my past -

Years ago, when I first taught fifth grade, I was at home correcting some non traditional long division. My husband, the accountant, walked by, looked at the papers, and asked what it was. When I explained the theory, he remarked - You do realize that there is a reason the traditional way (not this) is tradition…

I once read that students who are successful in algebra are those that can utilize the traditional long division algorithm, and that those who could utilize the long division algorithm were those who had memorized the multiplication tables.